Majadiliano ya mtumiaji:Mjanja

    Kutoka Wikipedia, kamusi elezo huru

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    Ujue miiko:

    Tunakushauri pia kuandikisha email yako; haitaonekana na wengine lakini wataweza kukuandikia kupitia mfumo wa Wikipedia. Karibu sana!

    Welcome to Kiswahili Wikipedia!

    We welcome you even if you don't speak Kiswahili. For a bot flag go to this site. If you try to edit entries as a non-speaker, it is better to first communicate with one of our admins who can advise you. You may find them at Wikipedia:Wakabidhi. And, please:

    • do not post computer translated texts (like Google Translate, Content Translation, etc. all do not work for Swahili)
    • nor copied texts/images from other webs to this site!
    • do not use links to commercial pages, never post anything that looks like advertising.

    As a newcomer we advise that you register your email. This will not be visible to others but it allows us to notify you, which often is helpful in case of problems.

    --MwanaharakatiLonga 09:07, 15 Novemba 2010 (UTC) Reply[jibu]

    Zeus na majina maalumu![hariri chanzo]

    Salam, bwana Mjanja. Kwa mujibu wa Mawikipedia mengine na utaratibu wa Wikipedia hii. Ukitaka kujua kuhusu hayo tafadhali tazama: Wikipedia:Makosa#7_Kutafsiri_majina_maalumu na utaelewa namna mambo yanavyokwenda. Karibu sana na ukiwa na swali uliza tu, kaka.--MwanaharakatiLonga 09:27, 15 Novemba 2010 (UTC) Reply[jibu]

    Kwa maana hiyo, Zeus ibaki kama tafsiri za wengine zilivyo na si Zeu. Tafakari.--MwanaharakatiLonga 09:39, 15 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Zeu, Herme, Artemi[hariri chanzo]

    Zeu na Herme


    Haya, nimeona! Lakini pia nikitazama mengi yaliyofanywa na wale walionitangulia naona wanaandika Zeus tu na si Zeu! Sijui, lakini tuache zote mbili zitumike na moja tutaelekeza kwa ukurasa mwingine. Je, Twelve Olympians tutaitaje?--MwanaharakatiLonga 09:45, 15 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Je, unategemea kuanzisha makala ya Zeus? Naona umeelekeza ukurasa wake kwa Zeu - na kikawaida huwa tunafanya hivyo ikiwa tunataka kuanzisha ukurasa wake! Mengineyo: unaweza kujitaja kwenye ukurasa wako wa mtumiaji. Kwani naona hakuna kitu kule. Labda maarifa ya lugha na kadhalika. Cheers.--MwanaharakatiLonga 10:23, 15 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Hi, do you speak Swahili?--MwanaharakatiLonga 06:57, 16 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    I am learning Swahili at the moment. I know the basics to the grammar (and I understood what you wrote), but so far I cannot write complex sentences yet. I want to see Swahili gain thousands and thousands of more articles on Wikipedia. It is a language that I would like more people to learn. Hopefully, with your help we can make the number of articles skyrocket! Thank you. Cheers!

    Okay, that's cool. Would you please be so kind to explain yourself on your user-page? It would be so lovely if you'll create the page. Also, don't worry, you have my back on this. I will definitely help you out, pal! Cheers.--MwanaharakatiLonga 16:17, 18 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Naona kuhusu majina ya miungu ya Kigiriki alifanya vizuri maana tafsiri zote 3 za Biblia kwa Kiswahili nilizo nazo hutumia Zeu na Herme. Kwa hiyo ni sawa kuanzisha makala kwa umbo hili, lakini sharti tuweke vielekezo maana wengi watatafuta jinsi ilivyo kawida kwa Kiingereza. Kipala (majadiliano) 06:44, 30 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    W- vs Y-[hariri chanzo]


    I need your help. Could you tell me why "majitu yenye" was used? I thought that for living creatures the prefix "w-" is always used. For example, "Miungu wa moto" Gods of fire... or "Miungu ya moto" ?

    Miungu (Class3/4) = Miungu wa moto OR Miungu ya moto??? Majitu (Class5/6) = Majitu wa moto OR Majitu ya moto / Jitu wa moto OR Jitu la moto??? Which is the grammatical way and do you know the reason why?

    Another example... Malaika (Class 9/10), but I always see "My angel" written as "Malaika wangu" instead of using the Class9/10 prefix "y-" (yangu). Which one is correct?

    Thank you for your help.

    Haya, since the sentence mentioned "majitu" on my native understands telling me that it's not possible to write "wenye" 'cause it is started with "ma". If you want to use "wenye" you were suppose to use "watu" "wenye" (that's write). If you write "majitu" obvious it's coming "yenye" because they are an extra big (giant).
    "Miungu ya moto" is absolutely right.
    "Malaika wangu" is absolutely right.
    Feel free to ask me anything.--MwanaharakatiLonga 05:22, 20 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Okay, this leads me to ask about the word "daktari" and "madaktari". Should I say "daktari wangu" (My doctor) / "madaktari wangu" (My doctors) or "daktari langu" / "madaktari yangu"? If this is the case, then I will completely understand. Thank you for your help.

    That's depend with the sentence is. In-case of "daktari wangu" sound very much okay to me. And so "madaktari wangu". But "daktari langu" sound weird because the "langu" is not used to posses the person. Nonetheless, you can use it on a car (my car = gari langu au gari yangu it's pretty much the same). Anything else? BTW, you have to add four tildes (~~~~) at end of you talk - and that will make an auto-date, name, and time. Yours,--MwanaharakatiLonga 07:37, 20 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Just happen to see this. There are nouns for human beings which are not in m/wa class - like daktari/madaktari, dereva/madereva. Generally they get the concordant syllables like m/wa. You can have a short explanation here under No. 4D: Kipala (majadiliano) 08:14, 30 Novemba 2010 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Lugha![hariri chanzo]

    Salam, Mjanja!

    Naona umebadilisha kiwango cha ufahamu wa lugha kutoka sw-1 hadi sw-4. What a fastest learning, pal! Hongera kama kweli. Wako,--MwanaharakatiLonga 14:35, 19 Januari 2011 (UTC) Reply[jibu]

    Paa (mnyama)[hariri chanzo]

    Hi you deleted a lot of content on that page. Was that your intent (no explanation on talk page)? Kipala (majadiliano) 22:57, 19 Januari 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Mustelidae[hariri chanzo]

    Hello Mjanja. I have noticed your interest in articles on animals. Welcome! So far, I was practically the only one writing those. Concerning your article on Mustelidae, I have an issue with the word "konje". You have interpreted that as meaning "marten", but I am afraid you cannot believe everything that you read in dictionnaries, especially where animals (in the widest sense) are concerned. For a long time, I have tried to find out exactly which animal is meant by konje, but so far, I am not sure. Apparently, it is an animal that occurs in East Africa, which would exclude martens, because those do not exist there. If it is in fact one of the Mustelidae, then it has to be an African polecat or weasel or a honey badger. Alternatively, it could be one of the mongooses. For the time being, I think we should be cautious. Also, I am not sure we should try to give Swahili names to all animals in the world. We would soon run into trouble. If native Swahili speakers would like to do that, they better do it themselves. ChriKo (majadiliano) 10:56, 10 Februari 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Yes, it has been a challenge to find certain words for certain animals. I am trying my best to honor my grandmother and her native language, and with her help I have been able to add all the missing animals on Swahili Wikipedia. She has told me that some these terms are quite vague and that certain animals look very similar to others, so the terms must not be taken too strictly. She tells me to remember that. I am greatly excited to see the Swahili language flourish with everyone's contribution to "Swahikipedia". Are there any questions concerning animals you would like me to ask my grandmother? I would like to help in whatever way I can. Thanks! Mjanja
    Hi, it is a challenge indeed. I've been doing research on this topic for years and certain names are still a mystery to me, including "konje". What did your grandmother say about that name? The problem is indeed that certain animals resemble each other and then end up being given the same name, each least by modern people. I am convinced that in the past, most species had their own name, but people are starting to forget. That is the main reason why I started my research and why I decided to put the results on the internet. So far, nobody has challenged any name. I am not sure whether that is a good or a bad sign. I fear it's the latter. I shall put together a few names that I am not sure about and send them to you. I hope your grandmother knows them. ChriKo (majadiliano) 14:55, 7 Machi 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    I asked her opinion about this word, and she agrees with you in this controversy. The marten is not from this area but the word describes an animal with similar traits and that it is not the perfect term for this animal but neither are any other Swahili words, and this word in particular is the closest type of animal to describe the marten. And feel free to send the list of mammals you have, I will let you know what she says.


    Yes, I can send you the list of mammals, but by email is easier. I have sent you a mail. Once you have replied, I shall send you the list. ChriKo (majadiliano) 13:02, 10 Machi 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Kuhamisha makala[hariri chanzo]

    Salaam naona umeanza kuhamisha makala yaliyokuwepo muda mrefu. Naomba usiendelee hadi kusubiri matokeo ya majadiliano. Hii ni kawaida yetu hasa kati yetu tulio hapa mara kwa mara. Kuhusu majina ya nchi na miji tuliwahi kujadiliana mara kadhaa katiki miaka iliyopita. Je umechungulia majadiliano haya ?Kwa sasa nitarudisha uhamisho . hii haimaanishi ya kwamba ninakataa kabisa lakini tafadhali tufuate utaratibu wa majadiliano, mapatano na mabadiliko. Angalau tusubiri siku kadhaa kabla ya kutekeleza uhamisho kama hakuna anyejibu maoni. (I repeat in English :) I see you started moving articles which have been in place for some years to new lemmas. Please do you not continue without waiting for results of discussion. That is a good rule on wikipedia and also here on sw amongst us few active contributors. We have had a lot of discussion on lemmas for names of coutries and towns in the past years. Have you read these? For now I reverse the changes. This does not mean that I want to block your ideas but please lets stay with the system: discussion first, agreement, change. At least we should wait a few days after proposing a change on the discussion page. Kipala (majadiliano) 06:51, 21 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Namuunga mkono Kipala. Ndugu Mjanja, naomba usihamishe makala bali utumie maelekezo (#redirect) badala yake. / Please use #redirect instead of moving articles without consent from the sw:wp community! Asante, --Baba Tabita (majadiliano) 12:10, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Denmark / Denmaki[hariri chanzo]

    Ndg. Mjanja, salaam! Nimeona kuwa umeanza kubadilisha jina la nchi ya Denmark liwe Denmaki. Bahati mbaya hiyo siyo kufuatana na matumizi ya Kiswahili. Ukiangalia mtandaoni, kuna mwandishi mmoja tu aliyetumia "nchi ya Denmaki" naye ni mwanafunzi wa kuandika insha. "Nchi ya Denmark" lakini, utapata kirai hicho zaidi ya mara 2000 mtandaoni, pamoja na redio ya Kiswahili ya Umoja wa Mataifa, magazeti mbalimbali na kadhalika. Ndiyo sababu nimerudisha matumizi ya Denmark katika makala ulizozibadilisha. Ni tumaini langu kuwa utaelewa. Wasalaam, --Baba Tabita (majadiliano) 12:20, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    istilahi ktk jamii / terminology in categories[hariri chanzo]

    Ndg Mjanja, salaam! Jambo lingine kuhusu kubadilisha istilahi mbalimbali. Kwa vile jumuiya ya wikipedia hapa tumekubaliana kutumia istilahi fulani, istilahi hizo pia huingizwa katika mfumo wa jamii (categories). Kwa hiyo, haifai kubadilisha istilahi sasa ila mfumo mzima wa jamii ubadilishwe pia. Ndiyo sababu tukubaliane kwanza kabla hatujabadilisha istilahi fulani kwa sababu ni kazi nyingi kubadilisha mfumo wa jamii. Bora kutumia maelekezo (#redirect) badala ya kubadilisha mfumo mzima. Wasalaam, --Baba Tabita (majadiliano) 13:07, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Ah, anaenda mbio labda kwa sababu kipindi cha nyuma nilifanya mabadiliko kadha wa kadha katika baadhi ya makala zake. Sasa anafikiri vile ni sahihi (hali ya kuwa si sahihi). Nilifanya marekebisho ya kitahajia jinsi mimi ninavyolisikia neno kwa Kiswahili na si vinginevyo. Kuhusu uborangaji wake sijui hata namna ya kumshika kwa sababu mtu mwenyewe anaonekana mbishi kama nini. Nimekuwa nikifuatilia mijadala yenu muda wote. Huzuni ni kwamba makala zake nyingi hazina jamii na wala haoneshi hata moyo wa kufanya hivyo. Kikawaida tunatazama wale waliotutangulia - kisha nasi tunapita mulemule, lakini Mjanja? Ah, sidhani kama yupo hivyo. Ndugu, ni lazima tujadiliane kwanza - kabla kufanya mabadiliko yoyote yale kwenye makala iliyochangiwa na wengi. Hasa makala za zamani. Kingine, umeweka babeli yako unaongea Kiswahili 4 ilhali si kweli. Jaribu kidogo tuelewane. Ni hayo tu, basi. Nikiwa ninatokea Dar es Salaam, Tanzania - niite Muddyb au,--MwanaharakatiLonga 15:49, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Start over?[hariri chanzo]

    Hi Mjanja, we had a bit of tough exchanges but today I would like to send you greetings of Easter and peace (regardless of whatever religion or non-religion you may feel yourself affiliated). Forgive me if I say straight away (and not in a Swahili way) I think that you are a gifted student of Swahili who arrived at this wikipedia and found a number of things strange. So you tried to put them straight. I do not blame you for that even if I did not agree with a number of your proposals. When Muddy put that message of welcome on the top of this page he did it in the name of all active here and we mean it that way. We are a small group of editors who together with others who left or who only pass by seldom have managed to build this wikipedia to be the largest wikipedia in any African language. We are really happy about any one who joins us.

    I think you have alot of talent and I can imagine that you have a lot to contribute. What is needed here is commitment in a spirit of cooperation. We only managed to reach here where we are because we did not waste much time on quarreling or edit wars like those which consume a lot of enery on other wikipedias. How ever you see your own level it looks to me that you are still in a beginners stage - and that means you still have a lot of potential to gain.

    I hope you got an idea from he discussion that Swahili is a fast growing language which is still pretty fluid. That is why there was the pretty ingenious idea here at sw not to loose too much time quarreling about terminology because everybody who has spent a bit of time in East Afica learns quickly that this is not the way how Swahili really works. Luckily wikipedia gives us the chance to work with "redirects" so that any user who looks for "Grinland" or "Grinilandi" or "Greenland" or "Greenlandi" (there may be more variations in use!) finds his article. As for the "authoritative" sourcs which should be the TUKI-dictionaries you may have seen when checking on majina ya sayari that even here the 2 most important dictionaries vary between themselves - and i think there was an obvious mixup.

    Because we are so very few it is important that we respect each other. You may have understood from Muddy's (=mwanaharakati) reaction that he thinks the lemmas "Uswidi" and "Uswazi" are pretty idiotic - I started both and he may be right. Practically it is not so important because of redirects everybody gets his info. I see my task of building a base as broad as possible. The time will come pretty soon when use of intenet spreads that far that more local users will join who are going to change a lot any way of what I start. And that is the principle of wikipedia that the community as it is develops the site. So I know that i have no right to anything I put here. As long as we are that few there is so much to write about that is is absolutely not worth while fighting.

    In this spirit I would like to repeat the welcome to join us again because I see that you are a fast learner with a lot of talent. Kipala (majadiliano) 19:39, 25 Aprili 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Thank you for your words and encouragement. I will be more prudent with editions on the Swahili Wikipedia. I really hope to see Swahili Wikipedia grow and would love even more to see the language itself grow independently from English. I appreciate your hospitality and I will see you again in the Wikiworld. Danke, thank you and asante. (Mjanja) 27 Aprili 2011 (UTC)

    Animal names[hariri chanzo]

    Hi mjanja, we have a debate on the user page of ChriKo about some animal articles you put here. Kindly help us about the origin of these names. Did you try yourself to find suitable names or do you have any sources ? (I would not expect your grandmother to come up with "domobata"...) . Kidly reply fast as there is a proposal to cancel all these entries for now which look a bit made up. Kipala (majadiliano) 07:15, 23 Julai 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    At the time I did some of these articles, I would show my grandmother a picture she would tell me the animal that it resembled and for the beaver for example "panyabuku-maji" she said that it looks like a panyabuku but I asked how should would differentiate it and she told me to put "maji" after it since they live near water. But as for the domobata, you can change that to simply kinyamadege. And I have not discussed anything about my grandmother directly to you, so you can certainly keep your remarks about her to yourself.

    I have gained many much more help with the knowledge of animals since these articles and some of them could be changed. Like for instance, most people call the beaver simply "biva", and so we should change it thus. And the anteater is a mhanga, so mhanga mkubwa is indeed a giant anteater, but I have found the word kiharara for an animal like a mhanga but larger, however, no one I have talked to has known this word.

    The horseshoe crab on the other hand is certainly not kaa kiatu cha farasi, that translation is simply idiotic. But if someone finds a better word out there, please add it.

    We are all aware that most of these animals did not originally have a Swahili name, but when certain animals like "sea spider" come along, I think we should simply translate it literally as "bui-bahari", instead of avoiding making a page at all.

    So, now if any Swahili speakers read this, please, kindly ask the people who regulate Swahili (or who should be regulating it) to make new words to help the survival of this language. I am finished with this uphill battle with a language that will not even help itself. Delete any article of mine you do not see fit, after all, this is your Swahili world. This just means less information about not only the Swahili language itself but about the subjects that are being explained. And in my experience, no one has even seen most of these animals so now the platypus or kinyamadege will have to be seen on another wikipedia. Keep doing whatever makes you happy, administrators, and do not forget to use as many English words as possible while you do it. Mjanja (majadiliano) 03:52, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    SIGHS! Mjanja, you've started pretty well, but end-up badly, nope! That was harsh, and Kipala's idea was not to make you go away. He was trying to make you be on the same track as we are and not the otherwise. He left a message to you because he believed you can bring some good output about the names. I was wondering if you could continue with your efforts with ChriKo who actually a specialist of the creatures. Kipala and I are not the ones who can typically judge about the names, we, however, have an ideas so we are sharing them with those who actually know what this is, i.e ChriKo. Please stay and help us improve the animals articles. Sincerely, Muddyb au,--MwanaharakatiLonga 04:29, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    I was a bit harsh, but this battle to help add to Swahili just seems futile. I want to see more articles about natural things on Wikipedia. All of my dictionaries and human sources have called the platypus 'kinyamadege' (little bird animal, literally), and I am not sure why the article "domobata" was deleted and not just corrected to Kinyamadege; that was quite confusing. But something must be done for the names of such unique animals like the "sloth", this animal for instance is very different from anything in Africa. Maybe mvivu-miti is not the best word, but the word "slothu" could work following the rules of other Swahilified words ending with O + TH. But we should no avoid creating a page just because an official word does not exist. It is either time we Swahilify these words, create new ones, or forget about the language growing completely. If Swahilified words can be accepted (for things of non-Swahili origin), like "slothu" (sloth) or "biva" (beaver) then I am ready to help again. But can anyone tell me what a skunk in Swahili is then? Because every source I have spoken to has called it a kinyegere and has called a weasel kicheche or chororo. Best wishes Mjanja (majadiliano) 05:12, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Done. Will consider your contribution as part of our new words on Swahili. Nonetheless, it's better to discuss with someone like ChriKo before to add any complex article. I believe ChriKo can help and so are we. Speaking about the deleted one, I think I can revert it right away. Please stay!--MwanaharakatiLonga 05:27, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    I restored the article "Domobata". Please go to its talk page and share your idea with us in order to improve the names of these unusual animals in Afrika! Thank you!--MwanaharakatiLonga 05:32, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Thank you so much for your words. I will continue to help. And I would not add anything about birds at all; I know very well that this is ChriKo's domain, and he's done great at it! I hope to see kinyamadege back up soon. And as for the sloth, can you bring back this article and change the title from mvivu-miti to "slothu"? And can you change also the article panyabuku-maji to "biva"? I would really like to see some of these words cleaned up myself.Mjanja (majadiliano) 05:36, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]

    Hey! Sorry, was out since morning. Well, I've never find the article went under the name "sloth". However, cross checked the "mvivu-miti" and hope to move it to the appropriate name, i.e "Slothu" as you suggested. Either way, ChriKo could play a major part on this suggestion - don't you think? I, however, do as you said for the time being. If you have anything to say, please speak out! Cheers!!!!--MwanaharakatiLonga 15:52, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC) Reply[jibu]

    Thank you for the help. I am willing to work with ChriKo or anyone who would like to add articles about words from non-Swahili backgrounds. But I don't think that every animal can take Swahilifications like the beaver or sloth did, (example: the horseshoe crab, this animal should not be Swahilified as horshukrebu nor should it be literally translated as kaa kiatu cha farasi) So, for certain animals like this and others it might be best to use names that describe how they look or their environment where they live, for a suggestion. I hope others will agree.Mjanja (majadiliano) 20:33, 1 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Evidently! Now we are talking!--MwanaharakatiLonga 04:59, 2 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Hi Mjanja. I am glad to read that you guys have made some headway. Unfortunately, I did not have the time to join in earlier. I fully agree with you that not all foreign names can be swahilified (horshukrebu looks and sounds horrible!). However, being non-native Swahili speakers, we should be cautious in my opinion about creating completely new names on our own. I admit that I did create a few myself, though I asked some people what they thought. I understand your frustration about things not moving fast enough. I have felt the same in the past, but I more or less resigned myself to it. I have tried hard to involve zoologists in Tanzania and Kenya, but so far practically without success. I suggest that we first concentrate on describing the animals that live in Africa (as I did with the birds). For most of them, we should be able to come up with Swahili names. The tricky bit is to come up with acceptable species identifiers. In the meantime, let's try to form a group of people to suggest Swahili names for animals where such names are not easy to derive from a foreign name. In my opinion, such a group should contain at least 10 native Swahili speakers with a good knowledge of animals. What do you think of this, and what about you, Muddyb and Kipala? ChriKo (majadiliano) 22:14, 2 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Well, that's good idea and could bring some good output. But the question is, how did you plan to get that number of people? Where can we find them?--MwanaharakatiLonga 03:55, 3 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Yes, it will probably not be easy to find that number of people, but I already know two in Kenya who might be willing to take part and be able to find others. Let's try to pull it off. If you happen to know any persons who fit the bill, talk to them or give me their contacts. Thanks. ChriKo (majadiliano) 09:11, 3 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Well, then consider it done!--MwanaharakatiLonga 19:58, 3 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]
    Nilikuwa safarini kwa muda kwa hiyo sijashiriki hapa. Ninaona mmepata njia njema. Ninakubali na maelezo mengi ya Mjanja - akiangalia michango yangu hatakuta maneno ya Kiingereza. Ninakubali matatizo ni hasa pale ambako tunajadili mambo ambayo hayakuwahi kijadiliwa na Waswahili. Kwa wanayama wengi wa aina hii naona njia nzuri ni kuanza kwa kuweka makala yanayotumia jina la kisayansi. Pamoja na hayo naona vema pia kuongeza jina la Kiingereza kwa mabano kama ni kawaida sana; maana kwa Waswahili wengi Kiingereza ni lugha ya marejeo katika sayansi na teknolojia. Kamati ni njia bora! Kipala (majadiliano) 08:40, 5 Agosti 2011 (UTC)Reply[jibu]