Majadiliano:Iceland

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Kamusi ya "Kamusi Project" inaandika kwamba jina la Kiswahili la nchi hii ni Aisilandi (au Isilandi). Kwa hiyo naania kwamba tuihamishe makala hii iwe "Aisilandi" au "Isilandi". Je, ninyi mnakubali? Marcos 19:33, 22 Julai 2006 (UTC)

Kamusi Project ni mradi mwenye mambo mazuri lakini pia kasoro. Kuhusu orodha iliyoko nyuma yake tumewahi kujadiliana. Mimi sikumbuki kuona "Aisilandi" au kitu kama hiki kamwe. Kama imetajwa gazetini nakumbuka "Iceland". Nisipokosei kuna mapendekezo kadhaa katika orodha hizi ambazo hazikuwahi kutumika; hasa kama ni mahali pasipojadiliwa katika maandiko au magazeti ya Kiswahili majina yale ni nadharia tupu tu. Ni tofauti kuhusu nchi zinazojadiliwa hali halisi. Mimi naona tusipoteze muda kuchezacheza habari za majina haya, tuongeze viungo na tuendelee kujenga kamusi. --Kipala 23:39, 22 Julai 2006 (UTC)
According to the Oxford Kamusi ya Kiswahili Sanifu, and also by following the general rule of Swahilification, this country's name is "Aisilandi" (and even "Isilandi") (I think that if you want to show that the English name for this country is Iceland, then in parentheses write "Kiingereza: Iceland"). Also the country's national language is Icelandic so the default transcription in this case should be Icelandic as Ísland. I am sure that you have read the English word used but I am also sure that these newspapers or magazines have also used several other English words for which their is either already a Swahili translation or at least description. (By the way, such articles commonly use abbreviations to save space.) As for the country's demonym, it has been translated as Mwiceland. This word does indeed follow the Swahili rule of mw- before the country name, but it ignores the general rule of spelling in Swahili and therefore should be written indefinitely as mwaisilandi (or mwisilandi); (You might as well just use the word "Icelandic" if you insist on using English!) It is best that we all realize that this is the Swahili version of Wikipedia, if someone wanted to know the English name they could just as easily click on the English language version. We should come together to help the language grow in vocabulary and follow the rules of the language (as well as well-known books as Oxford), so that Swahili can retain its own unique qualities and not become simply a mirror to the English page. (Unfortunately an overwhelming amount of articles on Swahili Wikipedia has been written using the English name, and as for the countries they indeed have a Swahili translation, and the article should start with the Swahili transcription and if one chooses to show the English name, please put these in parentheses. However, showing the English name for these countries is not only redundant but it could also bring confusion to anyone who would like to know the true Swahilified version.) --Mjanja 20 Aprili 2011 (UTC)
Nimerudisha uhamisho wa makala kwenda "Iceland" uliotekelezwa bila majadiliano. Hii inahitaji majadiliano tukikumbuka tofauti zilizopo kati ya orodha ya majina ya nchi kwa kulinganisha BAKITA, TUKI, na Redio Tanzania Dar es Salaam. Majadiliano haya tulifanya hapa miaka 5 iliyopita. Ikitakiwa tufungue tena.
Kuhusu Iceland au Isilandi au Aisilandi ni wazi ya kwamba ni nchi isiyojadiliwa sana kwa Kiswahili. Matumizi ya watu wengi (kati ya wachache wanaotumia neno) jinsi ninavyotazama ni "Iceland". Umbo hili limekuwa Kiswahili kutokana na matumzi ya wasemaji chake na kwa hiyo kueleweka zaidi. Swali la umbo sanifu si rahisi kujibu katika mfano kama huu kama mawazo ya wataalamu yanatofautiana. Kuhusu nchi nyingi ndogo orodha za BAKITA, TUKI na vyombo vya habari zinatofautiana. Mtindo wa kutumia pijini ni njia mojawapotu. Kimsingi hapa tuna uhuru kubwa tukikumbuka kutumia vielekezo vema maana jambo muhimu ni ya kwamba mtu anaweza kukuta makala sawa kama anatafuta Iceland au Isilandi au Aisilandi. Ila tu tusibadilishe bila majadiliano maana tunahitaji mapatano juu ya umbo la kimsingi kwa maneno yanayokuja pamoja na jina la nchi kama lugha n.k.
Kuhusu kile ulichosema "Unfortunately an overwhelming amount of articles on Swahili Wikipedia has been written using the English name" - unamaanisha nini?
Kipala (majadiliano) 07:45, 21 Aprili 2011 (UTC)
Let's start discussion: What is the benefit of using the English name instead of the Swahili version? It is clear that media commonly uses shorter terms and often will use English words as well. I also remember hearing "England" on the radio, but does that mean that we should change the main article to England from Uingereza? Swahili is a phonetic language, please, try to read this word with Swahili eyes "mwiceland"; what do you see and how would you write this in IPA? Seeing the way it is written, is /mwitʃeland/ or /mwiseland/ your desired pronunciation? --(Mjanja) 21 Aprili 2011
Ahsante kwa mchango wako. Kwanza sioni tofauti unayodai kuwepo kati ya "jina la Kiswahili" n "jina la Kiingereza" katika mfano huu. Kiswahili ni lugha inayoendelea kukua na kupanuka - majina ya mambo ambayo ni mapya kiasi kwa upeo wa utamaduni wake hayana umbo maalumu bado. Kuna nchi zenye majina sanifu kwa Kiswahili kama vile Ureno, Ujerumani, Marekani n.k. Kuna nyingine ambako hali ni tofauti. Hali ni wazi kabisa pale tunapojadili habari za majina ya miji / miji mikuu. "Iceland-Island-Isilandi au Aisilandi" ni mfano jinsi ganicwasemaji mbalimbali wanajaribu kukuta njia. Mi naona kwa mfano kama hapa hata mhariri wa kamusi hafuati "sheria" bali anatoa hoja mojawapo (umeshaona jina la "nyuzilandi" waliyochapisha?? Nchi ya uzi au nyuzi? Hongera!). Tuache ndoto ya kuwa hapa kuna jina "sahihi" Pili kumtaja mwenjeji wa huko sioni ugumu wowote kwa kutumia umbo lolote. Ila tu hapa tupatane. "Aisilandi" hakika si "Kiswahili" bali tahajia ya Kiswahili ya nusu-matamshi ya Kiingereza - pijini kwa lugha nyingine. Kwa nini isiwe "aisilendi"??? Lakini nakubali ya kwamba herufi katika Iceland ile c inaweza kuleta matata. Vipi kutumia umbo la wenyeji? Island au Islandi? Kipala (majadiliano) 20:29, 21 Aprili 2011 (UTC)
As for using foreign words in translation, in Brazil it is common to advertise, sell and speak about the fruit ‘’Vaccinium myrtillus’’ as a “Blueberry”; this is very obviously not a Portuguese word. The correct name in Portuguese for this fruit is “mirtilo” (uva-do-monte or arando), but should we create a page on the Portuguese Wikipedia with the headword as Blueberry, just because a large amount of Portuguese-speakers use this word to identify the ‘’vaccinium myrtillus’’ fruit? I think that it is best that we all realize that the media, advertising and such are not the collective views of the people and real words exist for these things. When speaking with native Swahili-speakers, they tend to add a final /i/ to foreign words that end in consonants, and if ending with labial consonants a final /u/ is generally added. Putting the spoken language aside, the literature itself is written as Aisilandi, Mwaisilandi and Kiaisilandi in several sources (one of which is a very reputable source – Oxford Kamusi ya Kiswahili Sanifu: Toleo ya Pili). People in many languages, commonly use foreign words in their everyday speech, but it does not make it the correct form of that word. Although the term “Iceland” might be widely used and understandable to Swahili-speakers, it is obviously an English word and should be treated as a variant of the true Swahili version “Aisilandi” (or Isilandi) (Clearly it is a transcription for the English pronunciation, but isn’t also “televisheni”, “stesheni” or “penseli”?).
Furthermore, the suffix –landi is not a Swahili word and would therefore not be confused with the “Nchi ya nyuzi”, as the famous story “Alice in Wonderland” is translated in Swahili as “Elisi katika Nchi ya Ajabu” not “Ajabulandi” nor “Wandalendi”. Of course, these certain words have been taken from English, but should be transcribed the way Swahili-speakers say them. Another point, is that languages are full of words with double meanings, so if one person would like to understand New Zealand as the land of yarn, then it’s no big deal and perhaps clever puns could be used in jokes about this country. So, instead of solely changing the demonym “Mwiceland” to “Mwaisilandi” or “Mwisilandi”, we should also change the headword “Iceland” to Aisilandi to fit the Swahili pattern. Please consult other native Swahili-speakers or Swahili literature, and you will find that the word Aisilandi is ubiquitous and is always shown as the Swahili form (never showing Iceland duplicated as both English and Swahili words).
As for why we do not use “aisilendi”, is because apparently countries with the –land suffix from English have always been transcribed in Swahili as –landi by our predecessors and that alone should add credibility to the Swahili transcription of “Aisilandi”. By the way, Ísland is the native form of the word, so isilandi is much closer to the original pronunciation; however, most sources that have been translated into Swahili cite Aisilandi over Isilandi. Asante. --(Mjanja) 21 Aprili 2011

Jamani kwa nini tusiokoe pumzi letu kufanya kazi badala ya kuvutana? Sasa sina uhakika umeelewa kiasi gani nilichoandika hapo juu. Nimekuuliza maswali mawili hujajibu badala yake unaendelea vile. Naongeza ya tatu: unaonaje kuwa "aisilendi" iko mahali popote? Msingi wako ni nini? Si picha ninayopata nikichungulia. Halafu ya nne: unaonaje mapatano tuliyowahi kuwa nayo hapa sw-wiki miaka iliyopita kuwa tusivutane mno kuhusu kubadilisha majina ya makala zilizoanzishwa kama si makosa kabisa bali tukaze upanuzi wa kamusi. Chochote tunachoandika si milele wakati utakuja WaTZ na WaEAK na hata Wakongo wataingia kwa wengi watafanya mambo yao. Nafasi yetu ni kuweka misingi. unaonaje? Kipala (majadiliano) 21:09, 22 Aprili 2011 (UTC)

I don't think you read my response. Get back on topic and discuss why you believe that the English word Iceland has precedence over the Swahili Aisilandi. You need to realize that Iceland is an English word, whether or not it is in common use among Swahili-speakers, it is still not the Swahili form. --(Mjanja) 22 Aprili 2011

Mimi naona shida mojawapo ni kwamba hata Tanzania elimu shuleni kwa kiasi kikubwa inategemea bado Kiingereza. Hivyo wanaosoma sekondari n.k. wanazoea majina ya Kiingereza na matamshi yake hata kwa majina ambayo haina shida kutamkwa na Mswahili (k.mf. Kyuba badala ya Kuba). Jambo hilo linazuia Kiswahili kisifaulu kueneza maneno na majina yake mengi yaliyosanifiwa miaka hii ya mwisho tu, mara nyingi kwa kutohoa tu. Katika shule za msingi za kawaida huku Tanzania wanafunzi wanapewa vitabu vyenye majina ya Kiswahili (vikiwa pamoja na atlasi), lakini watoto wengi wa umri huo hawajifunzi majina hayo yote, sanasana machache tu. Pamoja na hayo, natumaini majadiliano yataendelea kwa amani, kama inavyotakiwa. PEACE, PLEASE! --Riccardo Riccioni (majadiliano) 11:41, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)
Asante, Ndg. Riccardo. Kweli tufuate njia ya amani. Tukiangalia vitabu na kamusi mbalimbali tutagundua kuwa hata wataalamu hawajakubaliana. Hata kamusi ya Chuo Kikuu cha Dar es Salaam (ambayo huangaliwa kuwa sanifu) inataja nchi za "Kinodiki" au "Skandinavia" kama "Denmark, Finland, Norway na Sweden". Kwa kweli, tuna njia ya maelekezo (#redirect) kwa hiyo tusiendelee kusogeza au kuhamisha makala. Badala yake, tutumie #redirect. Majadiliano hayo yasiwe vita, la sivyo lazima wasimamizi wavikomeshe (ONYO!). Kwa sasa, nina uhakika kuwa sote tutafuata njia ya amani. Asanteni, --Baba Tabita (majadiliano) 11:59, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)
Si uongo. Hata mimi jina "Uswazi" kwa kutaja "Swaziland" nimeliona hapa Wikipedia, lakini miaka yangu yote sijawahi kusikia neno Uswazi kumaanisha Swaziland. Kwa sasa hivi ukisema Uswazi unamaanisha Uswahilini na si nchi tena. Tena hadi kwenye vyombo vya habari hutumia kama Uswahilini neno Uswazi. Hii inamaana ya kwamba majina ya nchi nyingine yanabaki na umbo asilia. Kwa mfano New Zealand, Norway, Denmark, Australia, Austria, Sweden (japokuwa hapa imeandika Uswidi), na kadhalika. Kuhusu baadhi ya maumbo ya Kiingereza ni jambo la kawaida kwa sababu Kiswahili bado kina-kopa-maneno rundo kutoka lugha nyingine ambazo ni Kiingereza, Kijerumani, Kireno, Kiarabu (msingi mzima wa Kiswahili), na kadhalika. Ifike wakati tukubaliane na hali halisi na si mgeni akaja na kuanza kuparaganyua mambo ilhali hata kuandika mistari kumi ya Kiswahili ni shida. Nina-heshimu sana uwepo wa wazee walionitangulia hapa. Ahsanteni!--MwanaharakatiLonga 16:18, 23 Aprili 2011 (UTC)